Are we Better Together?

[00:00:03] Welcome to the Quick Take Podcast, the show where you get targeted advice and coaching for executives by executives. I'm Susie Tomenchok. And I'm James Capps. Give us 15 minutes and we'll give you three secrets to address the complex topic of issues that are challenging executives like you today. Hey, welcome to Quick Take. I'm your host, Susie Tomenchok, along with James Capps. How are you, James?

[00:00:29] I'm doing great. I have my pop color top on here. I'm feeling poppy. You never knew that was a thing. No, no, I did not. But I have used it in a sense more than once. Nice. I knew you'd like it once you got it. And you do have a jewel color on today, I have to say. I know. I've got a whole jewel color wardrobe over here. I've got like the Quick Take closet, as it were. Well, thanks for bringing it up since I did not comply today and I am not a pop of color.

[00:00:58] Yes, but you are just a pop of energy. So, you know, you're always, you know, wardrobe to be damned. You're just bringing it every day. I have so much energy today compared to the rest of the week. We'll just leave it there. Yes. Susie's on the comeback from a little bit of a... So much fun. So much fun. When people share what they're carrying along to somebody else. So, yes. But I think your house is also a Petri dish. So that's self-inflicted.

[00:01:29] Okay. Fair. We're going to talk about a topic that I'm like kind of uncertain that we should talk about. I'm so done talking about it. And it's such an annoying topic. But I feel like it's worthy of a conversation again because I feel like I have changed my mind on this topic. And I never thought I would change my mind on this topic. Okay. I can't wait. And I... So we're talking about returned office. Yeah.

[00:01:55] Let's put it out there. And I'm also thinking like we have to be careful how we title this. Because I think that people... No one's going to be here unless we trick them to be here. That's right. That's right. That's right. So if you've been tricked to be here because we gave you a promise of something very different... That was your value. The pop of color right there. No, but it's an interesting topic because it is... It seems like it's a hot topic again. You know, President Trump came out and said all federal workers have to go back.

[00:02:25] You have large companies, major banks, major manufacturers saying we have to go back. So it's no longer this niche group of people saying, you know, we have large investments in commercial real estate. So let's get everybody back in the office. You know, I do believe that there is a significant push at scale for people to go back to the office. And I think it's a conversation that I think it just needs to happen again.

[00:02:50] I think back when you and I were both in corporate and working from home was just not something you did very often. Like you were in the office. In fact, I remember the time frame. Like you needed to be there. You worked nine to five or you worked eight to four or whatever it is. And you took an hour lunch. Like it wasn't watched to the minute, but it was expected.

[00:03:20] For a while it was. Fair. Under a certain leadership there was. But look, I would like to think that that maybe is the part of working in the office that is dead. That you no longer need to be there. You know, that authority shouldn't come from where you sit in the building. And good people aren't working insane hours to prove their worth. I think some of those trappings, I'm hopeful, have gone away.

[00:03:48] We didn't, you know, we've survived the last five years with remote work without those. We still know who the good people are. We still see people getting promoted and the like. You know, I think that the crazy part here is I'm actually kind of in agreement that going back to the office is the right thing. And I never thought I would say that. No, I understand.

[00:04:09] And while you were talking and I was reflecting back, I can remember, I can think about people that I knew because I was physically there that I would not have known. You. In fact, I would argue you and I wouldn't have known each other. We had no reason to interact if we did not work in the same building. Yeah. And there were so many times like and I think a lot of the support people, the IT people, the facilities people.

[00:04:38] And there were definitely benefits from being there in context that I received that I wouldn't have gotten without just being there. And I think that that's a great example of the part of working in the office that we kind of forgot about. Yeah. It was it's easy to say, you know, there's been a lot of buzz around the things like, you know, you can't collaborate. You can't brainstorm. I think some of the early companies like Zoom said we needed to innovate. So we have to be here.

[00:05:09] I'm not sure if it's that some it's that specific. I think in my opinion, it is about the human connection adds value. And if it adds value through innovation, great. If it adds value through empathy, great. If it adds value through fashion, great. But I do believe that that at the end of the day, there is a significant value to the human in-person interaction that we don't get on the video.

[00:05:34] And I've seen enough companies over the last few years struggle to maintain the cohesion that's required to be successful without being in the office. One of the aspects I think about around leadership that's really important, especially has shown a spotlight since the pandemic is well-being. And I don't want to say the balance of work and life and it's all of that, but it's really a responsibility of leaders to understand how their people are doing.

[00:06:04] And sending people home isn't always good because they could be lonely and then sending them home and having them be alone is perpetuating the problem. But, you know, one of the things is how do you know when people are doing well? Well, if you're virtual, you can only ask, but if you're in person, you can observe, you can help understand, you could even pick your timing better.

[00:06:25] And so there are those nuances around the human three dimensions and what you can learn from them and the dwell time to think when you're after a meeting and you just kind of, you know, talk about whatever comes up. There are things that come up that you can't orchestrate and that just doesn't happen virtually.

[00:06:46] It doesn't. It doesn't. And I think it's easy to go through and talk about each one of these individual ceremonies or actions that take place and say, without being in the office, I don't get the water cooler conversation. Without being in the office, I don't get the after meeting meeting. Without being in the office, I don't get to see the other people that I don't work with. Those are all anecdotes.

[00:07:12] And I think that our listeners can and probably are right now going, yes, but I solved that through this other thing. Or we always have an extra five minutes after the meeting to do the afternoon meeting. I understand that. And you can, through other ceremonies, address some of those items. What I have evolved my opinion on is that at the end of the day, all we can do now is identify these explicit ceremonies and hope to address them.

[00:07:41] But the very nature of our interaction as animals is just very complicated. And to be able to say that we can basically eliminate all those ceremonies and replace them actively, it's impossible. And so I do think that a lot of heavy lifting and very, very, very well laid plans, I just don't know that it can be done. No, don't get me wrong. I don't want to say that you need to be back in the office five days a week. That's not what I'm saying. No. We don't need back to nine to five.

[00:08:10] I'm just saying we are better when we spend more time together. You know, I do a lot of workshops virtually and in person, and I've been doing a lot more in person. I've realized that when we have cohorts that you do two days in person and then you go away and then you come back and do two more days, those people are very connected.

[00:08:35] I noticed, like, last time we were together, some of the things that came up because people saw the reaction. People were able to talk about it after or. Yeah. Yes. Even I had a woman that was saying there were a few people that shared very vulnerable things with me in the bathroom.

[00:08:57] You know, like, there were times where they got connection through just being near one another. And you can't, oh my gosh, think about having a two-day session virtually and how that feels so, so much pain and agony. Sure. But anyway. Pain and agony. That's a little strong. Yeah. I mean, considering that's what we do for a living.

[00:09:26] But yeah, it is tough to do it that way. For that duration of time. But yeah. I mean, what do you think, though? I mean, where are you on this topic? I mean, do you feel like if your clients are talking about, are your clients talking about this? Is this, you know, I brought it up at a recent board meeting and I said, I'm raising my hand to bring up something that I never thought I'd bring up. And it has been now a topic of every board meeting since. But what are you, are you hearing this yet? Or is this episode too hot?

[00:09:55] Or too early? No, it is. And there's still a division. And I think that the thing that's getting in people's way is the fairness factor. Of why them and not us? And how come this time or what days, what makes most sense? Yeah. Yeah. And everybody has a voice in the matter. And I think that's what we're seeing is enough. This is what the rules are going to be. And either like it or leave. Yeah.

[00:10:23] And, you know, I have three daughters who work professionally, all in very different scenarios. One works that would love to be in person more than not. And she works for a headquarters company that's not in based where she lives. So she doesn't get those opportunities. So when she gets the opportunities to be in person, she loves it. And she's learned to work virtually, but doesn't love it. Then I have another daughter who anytime they want to get together in person, she is like, oh, how can I get out of it?

[00:10:53] And just wants that. And so I would say my older daughter wants that community. She wants, she sees herself in the company longer term. She sees herself as wanting to progress within the company. And my other daughter, honestly, is not that devoted to the company. And so she's actually wants to go somewhere else. But I think that's the difference as well as an employee, whether you get on board or not.

[00:11:23] Is having that openness to what works for the culture and what works for the company. Interesting. I mean, are you suggesting that there are companies that are better suited? Or let's go the other direction. Are there companies that don't need to go back to the office? And if there are, is that an industry thing or a cultural thing or a regional thing? Well, when I think about sales organizations and them being there. Oh, yeah, for sure.

[00:11:51] But I would argue that sales organizations are also facing the, you got to get on a plane and get into seeing your clients. Because that is a differentiator for making deals and sustaining relationships. And so that's a different. They don't need to necessarily go to the office. Yeah, but it's actually the same exact thing, which is we are, again, my entire premise. And I think the title of the episode is we are better when we are together. Yeah.

[00:12:21] And whether you are together in an office and that's where you work or you are in the office as a salesperson making the sale, you're better when they're together. And that's what people, so it's not so much going back to the office. It's just going to where people are. Yes. So I guess my opinion on it would be I do think there's value to be together like you. I do think there's value in letting people have some flexibility around that.

[00:12:48] It is nice to have the ability to connect virtually as long as there's that connection in some regard. But it's that balance. How do companies decide what's right? I don't know. You know, my opinion was pretty strong in the sense that we would determine that the diversity of location was worth having because we got a better staff. You know, we could get the best of the best.

[00:13:13] We could get people who really wanted to work with us and not be constrained by the physical location of our offices or the DMAs that we're in. And then address all the problems, you know, by having various meetings and ceremonies and things to solve for that. But now I think that there's just places where that just isn't working. I'm thinking about the fact that there is going to be companies that will never go back. And there is industries where that makes sense, perhaps.

[00:13:42] But there is going to be a there, you know, certain industries and certain cultures are going to be are going to get gravitated back towards the office. I guess the only I'm trying to think to your question, which industry or what area of the business? I mean, call centers could be remote because they're on the phone all day. But then if they have to troubleshoot and they gosh, that feels so lonely to me.

[00:14:05] If I was a person, I'd want to have other people like, oh, I just talked to the fifth person that hung up on me or yelled at me. And there has to be some community to lift yourself up. But I think you're right. And I think that, you know, I know that there were companies that allowed you to be a call center agent from home. There are many companies that do that. And you're a robo dialer and you're calling and selling, you know, health insurance or whatever.

[00:14:32] And you can be a medical professional doing stuff remotely. And so, yeah, I think that there will be places. But, you know, I have clients that are in manufacturing, in banking, in healthcare, and in like ad sales, advertising. I feel like short of food industry, I think I got a pretty good swath there. I'm sure I'm missing some. I'm sure I'll get a couple emails on some key industries that I've forgotten.

[00:14:59] But I still think that even the ones where I think that they're most like the ad group, which is, you know, chock full of creatives and people who, you know, went to school for advertising and are more about that kind of that lifestyle. And they get a very dynamic and unique demographic of employees. And they did really, they leaned all the way in to have people in every city and every town so they could be really diverse.

[00:15:26] Even they're feeling the strain of not being in the office at the same time. Now, how do you go? How do you want to ring that bell? I have no idea. So I guess what is our answer? What is our answer is, I think there, I think it's important that every business has an in-person component. I don't think it's black and white, eight to five, Monday through Friday.

[00:15:49] I think it's a flexible, but there has to be some at least agreed upon rules around that or boundaries. Yeah. What do you think? Well, I think the first thing I think for our listeners is this conversation is happening again, like it or not. And I think whatever industry you're in, you know, there are some forces at play here that is causing this conversation to happen again. You need to bring it up.

[00:16:14] Even if you decide that we're going to bring it up next month or six months, let's, you know, as leaders, this is happening. These conversations are happening, whether it's your company, your people are hearing about it, or your competitors are talking about it. This is happening. So this conversation is hot again. Now, to your point, the rules and the means by which you do this, I suspect that, I don't know, I guess the best way to think about this is to ignore what it's about. And how would you implement any other policy?

[00:16:44] Right? Like, let's say you had a dress code or BYO, bring your own computer. I mean, you would have some structure to that and fairness and clarity is important for a group of people. And I think you just have to go with that in mind. It's hard when it's a very personal thing and people have bought homes in different states and suddenly you're forcing them to do other things. But I think, you know, following industry or following just a good best practice when it comes to any type of policy is probably the best bet.

[00:17:14] I guess my advice to people as leaders is how do you get the open dialogue? Because it's almost like you need your team to put on a business hat and go. First, let's talk about what are all the benefits of being at home and being at work for you as an individual? What do you like about it? What do you not like about it? And then what's the benefit to the business?

[00:17:38] And because I feel like the dialogue has been a miss because you had the business owner that was thinking about the interests of the business and then the individuals that are thinking about their own interests and what they want to do. But if we can get people to think like business and how can we create what's good for you, that's the balance. And then you come up with if you can get the open dialogue. Yeah, I think you're right. I think open dialogue is important.

[00:18:05] I just think that what's going to end up happening, though, for many of our listeners is that the people that want to work from home or do not want to come back to the office, you're losing them. Plain and simple. Yeah. And I don't know that their voice matters. Right. And so I think we have a responsibility to say what's the best thing for the business. And if that best thing is, is we need a specific type of talent that we can't get in the market that we're in. We need a specific type of footprint. We need people in different cities. And, yeah, this makes sense.

[00:18:34] And maybe it's all underpinned by the fact that the job market is tougher now and, you know, we can be a little more Machiavellian as leaders. But that'll change. It'll pivot. Yeah. You know, it'll be a buyer's market again. It always is. But I don't know. It's a conversation that I think that you should be having at your leadership level and understand, you know, what are the negative outcomes or what are the positive outcomes? And start with maybe some of the basics. And if people aren't willing to have that open dialogue, are they really happy? Are they committed?

[00:19:04] Do they care about the business? I mean, when you think about what I said about my daughter and not wanting to go in, that's partly is because she's just doesn't feel a part of something that's bigger. And so there's a bigger problem there. Yeah, I think this is not people don't want to work these days. It's people don't want to work for you. Yeah, that's exactly right. Well, I know we didn't solve it. No. And we went, this is a long episode, clearly a hot topic. Yeah. For us. So love to hear your thoughts.

[00:19:34] This is a fun one. And I suspect we will have an episode in the near future of the fallout of RTO. We'll see where it lands. The fallout of this episode. That too. And what people thought. So let us know. Let us know. Let us know. Thanks, James. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Quick Take, where we talk about the questions that are on the minds of executives everywhere. Connect with us and share what's on your mind.

[00:20:02] You can find us on LinkedIn, YouTube, or whatever nerdy place on the internet you find your podcasts. All the links you really need are in the show notes.