Avoiding Group Think

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Quick Take Podcast, the show where you

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get targeted advice and coaching for executives by

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executives.

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I'm Suzy Tominchuk.

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Speaker 2: And I'm James Capps.

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Give us 15 minutes and we'll give you three secrets to

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address the complex topic of issues that are challenging

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executives like you today.

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Speaker 1: Hey Quicksters, welcome.

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I'm Suzy Tominchuk, along with my great co-host, james Capps.

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How are you, james?

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Speaker 2: I am fantastic.

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Speaker 1: Awesome.

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So glad that our Quicksters decided to be here today,

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because this is a good one.

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I know it's going to be, I don't, you know.

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I'm just saying, I'm forecasting that this is going

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to be an over the top.

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Speaker 2: but I have a cognitive.

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I have a bias towards our episodes being better.

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Speaker 1: I like that Foreshadowing Okay, so maybe

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you're not supposed to throw that out, so I have.

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I just have to say one of my really good friends that I

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respect deeply she is a rockstar executive coach for some major

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logos and I just respect her opinion so much.

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And we were talking about influence and how influence can

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cloud our ability to see ourselves, and so we were

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talking about how can we talk to executives about when you're

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walking into a meeting or walking into a situation that

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you're sure you know about, to ask yourself are you sure about

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what you're sure about?

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, that's so good.

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I love that, the way that's put .

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Yeah, I think you know everybody.

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Uh, we get overconfident, we get um, we get lazy, we get uh,

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comfortable, um, and and.

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While those things are all true , there is a biological,

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emotional and measured issue that we as humans have, that we

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get these biases, and I think that they come into play in

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numerous ways and leaders struggle with it all the time.

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Speaker 1: I think they're accentuated in a time when we're

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really busy because our, our biases make it easier to move

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through in some ways, because we or we ignore them.

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We ignore them even more because we're in a go as fast as

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we can, get as much done as we can.

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Let's move on to the next thing .

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Speaker 2: Well, as humans we are.

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We are, our brains are designed to find patterns right, and

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that is the foundation of bad things like, um, you know,

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prejudices and um making assumptions about people.

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That that's the foundation of that Um, but it also allows us,

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as leaders, to, you know, assume that this situation is like

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another one I have and give the, give us the opportunity to

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maybe be successful again.

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But that that same muscle, you know um is, is, is a challenge,

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and I think, um you know when, when we, uh, as leaders, don't

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recognize the fact that we are being manipulated by our own

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brains, um that that we are not as effective as we can be and

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can fall into some traps.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I think it is important to take

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time to separate yourself from the day-to-day so that you can

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analyze those.

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So I'm sure you have a couple tips, maybe two or three.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that first.

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Yeah, I can probably come up with three.

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Yeah, I think so, you know.

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The first one I think is is really just accept and

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understand that this is a real thing.

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Um, one of my favorite HBR, you know we talked about a Harvard

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business review quite a bit.

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One of my favorite HBR articles is the leader's brain.

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How cognitive is cognitive biases?

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Um, influence our decision making.

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It's a real thing, and so often we hear about boards that will

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green light a project based on the previous successes of

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similar projects will preclude them from looking at this one

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with the interrogative eyes that they should.

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And I've know, I've coached a couple leaders who were, you

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know, known as captain confidence and they ignored the

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data driven insights that were really looking them in the face

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and that anchoring bias, you know, really forces them to look

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at maybe outdated models or outdated assumptions and, and

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without the recognition that this is happening, you're never

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going to get pushed through it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you are showing or illustrating to your

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team that you're just gonna push through it, they're less likely

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to push back.

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Oh yeah, because you already they can tell you've already

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made that choice.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, and I think that that's you know.

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You, as a leader, need to be really effective in your

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acknowledgement of that.

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And I think you made a really great point, susie, there about

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the stress behaviors that so often.

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You know.

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Every leader has a stress behavior and you all of our

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listeners know that.

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There are certain things that we do under stress.

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Some of us go out and find energy in crowds, some of us

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want to go read a good book, some of us want to take a bath,

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some of us work out, but those behaviors are based on stress

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and when teams and boards are under stress, they oftentimes

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will revert to or hide within those biases.

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So it's more accentuated under stress, but it's a real thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is really true to even be able to identify

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.

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I am under stress.

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Speaker 2: What do I need to look at To your point?

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Right, exactly right, exactly right.

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And I think that leads to my second point is you really have

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to up your emotional intelligence of yourself and

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your team?

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Yeah, you know, I worked with a really smart individual who was

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an avid parachutist Gosh Dave I hope that's an accurate phrase

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but he jumped out of planes on purpose on the regular, and we

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talked a lot about the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is,

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for those of you who don't have Google in front of you really

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that's the theory that people who have a limited amount of

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knowledge about a topic tend to think they are the biggest or

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the most expertise, tend to think they are the biggest or

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the most expertise, and so, early on in your understanding

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of a situation, of a skill or a capability, you quickly believe

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you're an expert.

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Oh, interesting and then over time, as we know, you know, you

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get into the room and we say you know, the smartest man in the

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room knows he's not the smartest man in the room, or the

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smartest man thinks or knows he has lots to learn.

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And that bias of individuals forces us and causes us to make

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some interesting decisions.

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Dunning-kruger is an example of that.

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But as leaders, we need to up our emotional intelligence.

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We need to give our staff and teams the ability to raise their

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hand and say hey, you know what .

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Can we talk about this from a different point of view?

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Hey, you know what this is.

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Can we talk about this from a different point of view?

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Can we have an honest dialogue?

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I think you know this is not just about biases.

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It's about just having a healthy team.

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But this is a really key element to addressing the biases

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that happen in a boardroom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it makes me think just about the techniques

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of that is not having an agenda that you just kind of pose on

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everybody to get you to the end.

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Absolutely Think about yourself as a facilitator of discussion.

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So it's up to you to pull in those opinions and those

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perspectives and when you do that, you're forcing yourself or

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hopefully you're forcing yourself to listen, to

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understand what they're saying.

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Speaker 2: You know, and that makes me think of, you know, the

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early days of Google.

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They were doing some amazing things because I think they were

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very much cognitive, aware of the cognitive elements of of the

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ecosystem, and it was the heyday of this, of the Valley,

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and we're, you know, I think our hearts were bigger than our

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brains.

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And you know Google's, you know share or, I'm sorry, they had a

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mantra of search, learn and share, and and that they had a

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mantra of search, learn and share and that, as a foundation,

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and along with you know, do no evil.

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That approach towards how you operate really creates an open

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environment for you to have, you know, that empathy bridge, if

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you will, to ensure that your team is able to work together

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and address some of those biases when they see them.

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Speaker 1: You know it goes back to what you said about we have

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patterns.

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So when you have a framework like that that you kind of have

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to check the box to say that's a great way to say we've done

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share, whatever the next two are .

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Speaker 2: I didn't remember well, but that's a great

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framework to use.

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Speaker 1: Search, learn, share, but then that pulls out.

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We need to follow this.

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That's such a great example.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, I love it.

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I love it.

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It keeps people.

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You know, I think that's it's got to be the foundation, and

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you know, my third piece of advice is, you know it's not

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quite as pithy as you know.

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Are you sure about what you're sure about, but it is.

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You know, go into a meeting with a bias bias, knowing that

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there will be biases on the table knowing it's literally

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impossible for us not to see things through the lenses that

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we have.

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And so if you can be a little meta, a little objective, a

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little out of the dialogue and see people, for, you know,

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looking at the lens that they're looking things through, you can

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really be very valuable.

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We bring in outsiders to our meetings and to our companies

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for that very reason, where they are looking at it through a

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different set of biases.

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You know, one of the companies that I work with had an

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incredibly difficult exit of some leaders and it cost them

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dearly financially due to a brain drain they essentially had

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.

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And so when we moved forward with that, they were all really

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wounded from that experience and there was really no way for

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everyone in the room to not look at the next situation through

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that lens of the previous situation.

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And so it took me and a couple other folks a lot of effort to

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say, all right, let's, let's put that other thing aside and not,

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you know, let's put the PTSD aside if you will, and not have

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that bias that comes with it.

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And so if you as a leader that was an extreme example but if

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you as a leader, can go in knowing that there's going to be

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a lens through which folks are working.

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You can usually move the needle and really make a difference

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when you're working with a team.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think one really good question to even

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ask, to just put it out there to get people to think about it

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kind of like right in front of them, is to say what biases do

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we have before we jump into it, let's all identify what are the

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things and maybe that people say we've we faced this before and

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this is how we did it before, so we might lean on that and being

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able to put kind of those biases on the table.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that you know this really ties into

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the first one as well, which is, you know, when you have an

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educated team and you guys do some reading and understand the

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biases that you as people have, it's easier to put a name to it

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and say, hey, I think you're having a.

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You know this is a confirmation bias.

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You walked in with this opinion and now we're all stuck to it.

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Maybe can we take it and can we do a pros and cons of that.

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Brains are, and you know there's plenty of.

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You know, hack your brain, let's, let's find ways to to use

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it.

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You know, use our tools to to make it, to address those issues

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.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a bonus option too is to really

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think about have a meeting that's not related to a specific

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agenda item and just talk about the biases that you have and

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just have a conversation around it because you're right, if you

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could label them in the moment.

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You've already talked about it.

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You've made it safe.

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You've talked about not safe, but you've made it just open.

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You've made it psychologically safe to say I have this.

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Speaker 2: Right, and it gives you the language to talk about

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it, right.

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I mean, how many off sites and events have we done?

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I know you and I've been to a couple where there's some weird

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phrase that the facilitator comes up with and then we carry

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that on for two years.

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You know, because it just does resonate, and maybe it's a

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phrase like you know go in with a bias, bias or maybe it's are

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you sure about what you're sure about?

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But those things you know.

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When you have a language to talk about it with your team, it

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goes a long way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just to add one more do you need to zoom

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out on that?

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Do you need to look at it from a different perspective?

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I mean, even just having that visualization of being able to

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look at it from a lot of different sides is powerful for

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our brain to be able to be curious.

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Allow curiosity Cause when you that that closed mindedness is

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really what bias creates, and so anything you can do to expand

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that to get people Well, I think , yep, I agree, and I agree, and

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I think that's part of the emotional intelligence.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, I think those are.

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Those are all great points.

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Speaker 1: All right, so what are the three?

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Speaker 2: One, educate your team.

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You know, have a meeting, like you said, susie, get everyone on

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the same page.

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Talk about biases, talk about the concept.

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Understand that this is a part of the fabric of your leadership

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group, of your staff, of your board.

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This is how you need to have the language around this and be

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able to talk about it in an intelligent way and not in a

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comical way.

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I know that happens quite a bit where people like to, to, to

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take these things to a place where it's not as effective.

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But, you know, be educated, take it seriously and have have

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a dialogue.

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Second, you know, build the emotional intelligence of your

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team so they can have these hard conversations, so you can,

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without recriminations and negative feedback, you know, you

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can call somebody out on something.

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A team that's more honest with each other and can work in those

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challenging situations is going to be more effective in the

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long run.

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And then the third one obviously is you know, go in

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with a bias, bias.

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Understand that these are there .

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If you can have that perspective, you can look at it

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through a rose color, no lens.

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If you will, you can be more effective and really help your

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team.

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Speaker 1: Such good tips and so important to continue to

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reverberate on that concept.

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Speaker 2: Yep, yep, it's a good one.

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I think this is something you can do all the time too.

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There is no done on this.

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You should do this annually.

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It could be part of your annual planning period.

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Where are we?

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Did we fail here?

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Did we forget to do this?

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Did we have a confirmation bias on this program?

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Yep, this is a true muscle that you can continue to grow.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly that.

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That was a better way of making my point.

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Thank you for, james, for really articulating that well,

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woohoo, all right.

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Thanks, james.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Hey, James, I was wondering if your team were a

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band, what instruments would they play and what would be

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their signature song?

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Speaker 2: What instruments?

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Now I'm not going to answer that question, but I'm going to

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answer it in a different way, because what I thought you were

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going to answer and I already answered in my head, is if my

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team was a band, what band would they be?

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're going to amend the question.

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Let the record show that you're amending.

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Speaker 2: I immediately thought we would be Fleetwood Mac, and

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let me say that why?

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For those of our listeners that don't know who Fleetwood Mac is

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, it's a band from the seventies I think before our time as far

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as but they're legendary and that they were full of drama.

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They fought constantly and then got along famously have.

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A lot of their songs are about the inner workings and

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challenges, but they managed to make all of that interpersonal

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anxiety, the stresses, the different personalities and made

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it work in a way that resulted in amazing product.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so I always think of that band as one of the most

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truly human groups of people who I think they all dated each

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other at one point or another.

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They were all probably married to each other at one point or

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another.

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Each one has gone on record saying they all hated each other

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at one point or another, yet they still managed to put out

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some albums that were amazing, and I thought that that

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dichotomy was very human and very real.

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Speaker 1: Love it, love it.

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I think that's a great example.

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Dichotomy was very human and very real Love it, love it.

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I think that's a great example.

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Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Quick Take,

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where we talk about the questions that are on the mind

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of executives everywhere.

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Connect with us and share what's on your mind.

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Speaker 2: You can find us on LinkedIn, youtube or whatever

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nerdy place on the internet.

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You find your podcasts.

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Our links to the show are in the show notes.

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We appreciate you.