Navigating Crucial Conversations

Welcome to the Quick Take podcast, the show where you get targeted advice and coaching for executives by executives. I'm Suzy Tomlinchuk.

I'm James Capps. Give us 15 minutes and we'll give you three secrets to address the complex topic of issues that are challenging executives like you today.

Hey, welcome to Quick Take. I'm Suzy Tomlinchuk, along with my good friend James Capps. How are you, james?

I'm fantastic, Suzy. How are you today?

I'm good. I'm good. That sounds so official. It's like get right to business. I am here today.

Welcome. Thank you for joining me.

You're welcome. You're welcome. We're proud to be here. Well, I just got back last night. I've been on the road with some clients of mine and doing something that I've been doing very often. It's really interesting. I've been talking a lot with teams about difficult conversations.

Oh yeah, that's a common conversation.

What really struck me is I did a lot of research, I was reading a lot about just refreshing myself on what is that? The human aspect of moving into a difficult conversation? It's so complex.

Oh, it is yeah.

But we want to boil it down to it is a performance issue, and that's when we have to have a difficult conversation. But what really struck me with this last team that I did they've been seasoned leaders for a while, a room of a lot of different perspectives and it was just interesting hearing that you can't really take out the difficult out of the conversation and you have to really be thoughtful about the way you're delivering it, but also how it's being received and what that is. And also one thing that really came up was you got to really be thoughtful about the timing of it and how to do that to make sure that the message that you're trying to articulate is really lands in the right context.

Yeah, no, I think that there's so many good points there. I think it's so important that we remember that a difficult conversation is not one type of conversation. Yeah, it is not just simply a punitive performance correction thing, and what is a difficult conversation for me may be simple for you to hear, or a simple thing for me to say to you may be a difficult thing for you to hear, and so we have to really be thoughtful as leaders to say, all right, this may be a difficult conversation from somebody's point of view and I need to behave in a certain way. So it is something that I think we probably put not the right attention to and probably the attention at the wrong time.

Yeah for sure. And one story, and I'll tell you this story that happened to me. It was actually a couple of months ago. I had a virtual assistant that had been working with me and I just love her to death. She was really great. She loves what I'm doing, she was really just had so much passion for the business. Problem was she wasn't very detail oriented, so she was getting meetings wrong. She was not writing things the right way and what was happening was I would talk to her and it just wasn't improving. It just wasn't her kind of like thing. But I really felt bad because I liked her.

And I knew her personal situation. So I didn't want to do anything to inhibit that or stress her out and so I really tried hard to work with her and be really, really clear. I even talked to my daughter about like, if I say it this way, will it?

land.

And there was one other contributor. This is the second VA I had gotten from this place and the first one we just had a conflict with our personalities. So I was like but if I get rid of her, it'll be more about it was a big thing and it was like my ego also got in the way of all sorts of things, yeah, so. I think that when I looked at where difficult conversations show up for me, it is just in what is that transaction or that feeling that go wrong with it, right?

That's a great example of, at the end of the day, maybe that difficult, the difficult nature of that conversation was more about your stuff and less about her stuff, and then maybe in this case, after you did have that difficult conversation for her, she was happier, she could have been more clear on her role, she had less ambiguity. So it is funny how you can never presume or assume how that difficulty thing is going to land, and I think that's why it's so important we're good at this and we give time to be good at it and we treat it like a muscle and we have to ensure that we are practicing this and trying to be good about it.

Yeah. So I'm really excited because I think I'm interested to hear what your tips are on approaching this and, if you believe, have they become less difficult for you?

So yeah, I do think they become more or less difficult. You know, granted, there's conversations I have where my heart still races and I still get sweaty palms because they're hard. My baggage gets into the, into the, into the, into the mix. You know, the first tip I give, I think, is so important because it's foundational and you know, it frustrates me to no end when I talk to leaders or I talk to employees and they and they tell me that their leaders, they don't have a one on one, a regularly scheduled one on one with their employees.

And if you're going to have difficult conversations with somebody, it is so much easier when you have a regularly scheduled conversation with them to have a rapport, to create that opportunity to do that. Now, I'm not saying you need to have the difficult conversation during your one on one. I'm saying that it is incredibly hard to talk to somebody once a year and have that one conversation. Be a challenging conversation, absolutely. You know it makes me think of when my, my dad, comes over and spends time with my kids when they're in town. You know he never sees them, you know he's, he's grandpa and their conversations are always weird, it's uncomfortable because he doesn't know them.

Yeah, he doesn't have anything in common with them. You know he still thinks they're in fourth grade. You know he occasionally brings up, you know, a baseball team that they played on, and you know, 15 years ago, and it's always weird because he doesn't have a regular cadence with them. Yeah, doesn't see them on the regular basis.

And I think that, as leaders, it's important for us to make sure that we have a scheduled meeting with our employees. I don't care if you sit next to them, share a desk, share a chair. You need a regularly scheduled meeting with your employee to give them an opportunity and a ceremony during which you can have a conversation with them. I do mine every two weeks. I do my staff meetings on the alternating week, so one on one's one week staff meetings are the next than one on one's. The following Make sure I have a regular cadence and then, when I do have a difficult conversation with them, I've already known what's going on with them. I don't have to have all these other things going on. It makes my rapport with them much stronger, yeah.

Yeah, that's so great for on two levels. One is just that trust people we can hear or will really listen well when there is that connection. But I love that you use the the story with your, your boys, because what it made me also see is we feel like we know our employees because we think about them, or there might be some time between those meetings where we have the context, but to them it may feel like it's very sporadic and so having a regular cadence and thought about it that way.

It's a real nuanced thing about how they see you, because it doesn't feel the same.

Oh, it's exactly right. I think that's a really great observation there about how we think about our employees and what they think about us, and what kind of relationship is really there. And just no relationship creates a relationship. There is ambiguity creates something, and so I think it's so important that, if it could be good at a difficult conversation, you need to have more than one conversation with your employee, and so my first tip is certainly, you know, make sure you have a regular cadence.

I love it. That's so good. That's so good. And you'd also said to is be careful not to just cancel your one on one. I know that was a separate one but I've used that many times when I talk to teams is don't just do it, even if it's a high performer, at least give them some context. Hey, I have to cancel it this week, or just be aware of what you're doing in that habit. I know that's a different one, but no, but that's a great message on that too.

It drives me crazy when I have a regular people tell me that they do have a scheduled meeting with their, their manager, but it's canceled every week. You know why? Don't you just walk by their desk and hit him upside the head and move on Right?

I mean, it's the same thing, it's just a slap upside the head.

Don't tell him why. Just tell him what it means. Just you know, I'm just going to smack you. I mean, that is that there's so much said there, so don't get me started.

But the key is because it's on your calendar doesn't count.

That's right. That's right. That's right. Nobody, you're not getting points for for for scheduling it. You get points for having.

Okay, fair, all right, what's two?

Number two. So the second big important thing when it comes to difficult conversations and I think you touched on it was have it done at the appropriate time and, you know, be thoughtful at the time and place to have that conversation. It's just critical when you want to be able to have it in a very structured way. You don't want to do it, you know, in the break room, you don't want to do it in, you know, in front of a bunch of people. You know I love to have difficult conversations by starting the conversation by saying this is going to be a difficult conversation.

Yes.

I love that because A it sets the tone for you, yeah Right, and it sets the tone for the whole thing. And even if it's not as difficult as you think it might be and maybe you end up having some laughs or whatever boy, that sure makes sure that you're focused on what to be said, because so often when you do sit down with somebody and if you do work with them a lot and you do have a rapport, you're going to start talking about you know something less appropriate, or maybe you're going to auger in on project status or what happened at a sporting event. No, you need to have a difficult conversation. That's what that conversation is for.

Yeah.

Right, have it at a right time, have it at the right place and make sure that that's a dedicated point in time, a dedicated event to have that conversation.

I love this one Seriously. This one is an absolute. I got this tip way back when we were work for Comcast I don't know if you got it from our friend Katie and she had said when I had a difficult conversation it was actually getting ready. If somebody go in and say this is going to be hard to hear and wait 30 seconds, because what you're doing is you're allowing them to kind of shift their orientation to be able to go. Okay, I need to, kind of, you're giving them time to kind of like get in the mood, if you will.

Oh, totally agree, Totally agree. Yeah, I would easily offer up a lot of what I know about leading people to Katie. She was quite amazing, so I don't know what that was. Are you okay? Are you having a seizure?

Oh hashtag.

I see that now.

I know that was like five years ago or 10 years ago, but you know that's okay.

Okay, let's move on. Third item, I think, which is super important for everyone to remember, is that you really want that conversation to be constructive, yeah, and we talk about this as the difficult sandwich, where you want to talk about something good, you want to talk about something bad and then you follow it up with something good. You need to make sure that they can hear what you said by making sure that there is a cadence to what's being told. Nobody can effectively respond to a getting yelled at when you have a difficult conversation with somebody and all it is is negative. There is just, it's not as constructive and it's hard to build on that. I love to say things like you're a great employee. Here's the problem. You're still a great employee. We love you. Hey, this is some things you do that are really well. This is something we need to change, but don't forget, we do things really well. That difficult sandwich is a great framework to have a hard conversation with somebody.

Okay, so I'm going to disagree a little bit, I'm going to disagree.

This is a moment I don't feel like I've ever officially done this. So I used to work with a good friend of mine and she hated the sandwich. She just loved direct feedback. I love the sandwich and so I think some people need it different ways. But I think the key is you have to have a discussion outside of the difficult conversation to say how do you like to have feedback and how do you like to get it.

You're not wrong and I'll agree with you. I think, at the end of the day, in a perfect scenario, you should understand how your employee takes feedback, and there are people who are going to be better at taking it very bluntly hey, don't pick your nose in a meeting. Blunt, straightforward, that's good feedback. I'm not saying that that's necessary.

That's necessary, but I also think that there are times when, then, that a different style is appropriate, and it does Not. Every conversation is the same, not every person is the same. Not every difficulty is the same difficulty. I just find that if you've got something really difficult for them to hear, that only hearing that piece is not always constructive. Again, as a good leader, we should know our people better and know that people are going to hear things differently, and so it is a challenge always to get them to hear it, but, I think, a good option. I do use that on occasion, but there are many ways to do that.

Yeah, and I think the benefit of that is it takes a little bit of the defensiveness away, because it allows them to not just dwell on that, because I think our brain is wired to just dwell on the negative.

Absolutely.

And so that gives us something else. That's why you say at the beginning and at the end, to hopefully give them something to kind of put their head around.

Yeah, and I think that a lot of work for difficult conversations goes into trying to understand how they're going to take that feedback. You should know how your employees are going to take the feedback because you have a regular one-on-one and the feedback you give on a regular basis is really not that maybe not that difficult to hear. So you understand that they do love that kind of feedback. They do listen, they like it directly, yes or no. They need to hear it three times before they hear it. Whatever it is, this is really about you being a manager and being good with your people and building rapport. But look, difficult conversations are hard and I think it's. You should be thinking about how you want to say it. You should be having a plan on how you say it. The difficult sandwich is one way, but I always believe a script is helpful, totally.

Make sure that you do say it in a certain way.

Yes, so use the words, and I think it's also an add. A bonus is be careful how you accept feedback, because it's an art to accept it. And when you don't accept it in a way that, like this, is your open, you're going to turn it off. You're going to be apprehensive. So, as a leader, make sure that you check yourself, because people learn from you.

That's right you mirror, they will mirror your means by which you take feedback. And if they do go out of their way to give you feedback and you respond in a very weird way, a negative way, then they're going to learn from that. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, that's key All right, so tell us the three.

Three things to remember when it comes to having difficult conversations. One don't let that conversation be the first conversation. Make sure you have a regular one-on-one with your folks, make sure that that's scheduled, make sure there is a calendar invite and you execute on that invite. Just don't blow it off, right, because that's pretty important.

Second one.

When you're going to have a difficult conversation, have it scheduled, have it in the right place, have it at the right time. Don't do those in a casual fashion. Difficult conversations are worthy of the appropriate time and the appropriate place, of behave in a certain way that gives them the credence that they deserve. Then, third, think about how you want to tell that story. Practice, prepare, be ready to have that conversation. Have a script, use the difficult sandwich, use the method you think is appropriate for that employee, but go into that with a plan. I think it's so key that you have a script. I'm a big believer in the script. A lot of us are less effective when under nerves and under pressure, but a script will help you really out with that.

Absolutely. I am 100% with you on that, and it allows you to pick the right words too.

That's right, that's right.

Awesome. Those are really really good. I appreciate your perspective Good stuff. Yeah, I'm going to steal some of it too, just so you know. Just giving you a heads up.

You can't steal it, it's everybody's, it's not?

just stealing.

All right, that's fair Just use it, feel free, feel free.

All right. Well, we appreciate our Quicksters. We continue to hear from our Quicksters. We love it. In fact, we're going to be introducing a new little segment that's going to be coming soon.

That's a teaser for this.

Quickster.

That was. Some of our Quicksters suggested we do something a little different. We've kind of put this together. We're super excited about it.

Yes, yes. So thank you for joining us today. We appreciate you. Feel free to reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you, ask us your questions that you want, follow us on LinkedIn, dm us, whatever you want to connect with us. If you feel like somebody needs to hear this conversation, feel free to forward it to them as well. So, thanks for being here with us and we appreciate you. Hey, here we are. This is Q2. Quickster questions. So we're going to surprise each other with questions that come in that are just random, that people want to know. So the question goes to James today, are you ready?

James, very exciting.

And it's very funny that you seem ready and I'm going to say you'll know why when I say this. So the question is do you really need glasses? And you took them off. So you don't have them on.

Do I really need glasses? I do. These are prescription glasses, but that's a good question. I do feel taken aback by that. I do need glasses to read on occasion. I will say they are maybe 20% necessary and 80% part of the ensemble. So, yes, I'm more interested in how they look versus how they work.

That's fair, that's fair, so I'm praying for you All. Right, that was it. That was the question.

Great question. Thank you, Quicksters. Maybe saw a little blush on the show. This is a good one to start with.

Questions that Quicksters are on the minds of Quicksters everywhere.

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