Reigniting Motivation in Disengaged VPs and Middle Managers

[00:00:03] Welcome to the Quick Take Podcast, the show where you get targeted advice and coaching for executives by executives. I'm Susie Tomenchok. And I'm James Capps. Give us 15 minutes and we'll give you three secrets to address the complex topic of issues that are challenging executives like you today. Hey, welcome to Quick Take. I'm Susie Tomenchok along with James Capps. How are you, James? I'm good. It's early morning in a spring day. It's feeling pretty groovy. I'm happy.

[00:00:33] It is groovy. It is groovy. We're grooving here and we're going to talk about being in your groove. That's right. And motivation. I've been hearing this a lot from senior leadership. I had one example of a senior leader who they did an employee survey internally and his senior people said, I'm not motivated. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's tough. And his response was, I pay you to motivate others. Right.

[00:00:58] Figure out how to get motivated. Like he didn't say that to them, but that's what he said behind the closed doors. No, it's hard. Since I heard that comment, I bring it up in front of teams and there's a lot of head nodding. And I had a guy the other day that raised his hand and was like, how do I motivate people? And I'm like, it's not going to be an easy answer. Well, I think there's three topics there, right? There's how do I motivate myself as an executive at a C-suite level, different conversations certainly. Then how do I motivate my C-suite team?

[00:01:28] And then, you know, the one that I think is probably the most influential and the most challenging is how do you motivate that middle layer, that middle management layer, the clay layer, as our friends have often called that in the past. And how do you get that group? Because I think that's the group that has the most multiplying effect ultimately, but it is challenging. I don't know. I guess as I think about it, some of the ideas that I've used over the years maybe apply to all three, but motivation is a challenge.

[00:01:54] Yeah, you're right. I want to just say you're the multiplying layer that you said. People can feel it. And if you aren't motivated, then they almost feel like, oh, then it's okay for me not to be. And how do they get themselves to feel that way? So even just not showing up in a way that feels motivated is going to demotivate the people around you. It's really important.

[00:02:19] No, I think it is important. And I think that at our level, at the C-level, you know, the people I coach, it's like, you got to fake it. And you've got to show that energy. You've got to show, you've just got to show up. You know, that is one of the key ways to motivate that VP management layer is you got to show, you've got to motivate by setting an example. You've got to imply that you're excited. You've got to be honest. You've got to be transparent, but you've got to show the energy and the passion for the vision because if you don't, nobody else will.

[00:02:45] Yeah. I can remember being not motivated and almost facing the thing I needed to do that day and going, I hate doing this. And I almost think you have to, in those moments, say, how am I going to look at this different or how am I going to get through it so I can get it done and move on to something else and just kind of change your cadence.

[00:03:08] As you were talking, was thinking, how do you actually put that into place? It's like working out. It's like doing things. Everybody believes that people are motivated that work out on a regular basis, but the truth is some mornings it's like, oh my gosh, I do not feel like doing this. I don't want to do it. But it's just like pushing through it.

[00:03:29] I think what happens is when you're not motivated at work, you put things off and you kind of like dwell in that space. And I almost think if you can prioritize getting through that stuff faster, I think it can really motivate you. I got to tell you, I don't know if I talked about this last time, but it doesn't matter because you can hear it again. Rory Baden is a speaker and he talks about the difference between buffalo and cows in the storm. You did not. Please tell. This sounds interesting.

[00:03:59] So when a storm is coming, cows just sit and wait. And so they experience the storm really slowly and they go through it. Buffalo see it coming and they charge the storm. Huh. That's fascinating. And so they charge it. And so obviously they get through it faster. And I think that's an interesting visual around motivation means that you're doing something that might not be exciting you or you've done it a lot,

[00:04:28] or it feels like you don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. There's a lot of pieces. So how can you reprioritize that for yourself? You know, I think one of the tools that I use and I think is really great is so often somebody's role is defined by maybe the meeting you had with them when they first started. Maybe it's defined by what happened at the beginning of the quarter or the year. And maybe your micro adjustments don't take into account a bigger picture.

[00:04:53] And I think it's important, especially at the VP level, to sit down and re-underwrite the role. What does success look like now? And I think it's very much like you described the workout scenario. It's really challenging to say, I want to lose 50 pounds and look like a bodybuilder. The reality is, is I need to get through the day. If you can sit down with your leaders and say, all right, we are in a situation this quarter where we are doing these things.

[00:05:18] What does success look like for your role now? So you re-underwriting, that reassessment, that really just taking a look at it again and re-determining what the role looks like now, I think is so important. As you know, you can't go 10 seconds without talking about AI. And two things, I think between the AI, the AI, I sound like my grandfather, between AI and the economy, things are evolving extremely fast.

[00:05:41] And if we don't take a look at each one of those in turn and talk about how your role applies to that, then I think it is easy for our employees to get lost. Yeah. When you were talking the reframe, how can you reframe where you are so you can maybe see it from a different perspective so that it motivates you toward that goal? Those like you said.

[00:06:04] And I think another really fun idea is I was reading an interesting article about Adobe, the company we all know and love and sometimes not love so much. But they created this concept of a mini CEO where they gave the VPs at middle layer an actual P&L and goals and guidelines and just let them run. And it really gave them the opportunity to fail, to succeed, motivated them and just a microcosm.

[00:06:30] I think, again, more of the reframing and said, all right, what would your tiny little company look like within the construct of Adobe and how would that be successful? And I think that's an interesting way to put a new lens on the role. Yeah, that's really great because I have a client who struggles with that with her people and how it shows up to her. Is they're not making the right decisions at their level.

[00:06:54] So we actually had that conversation about how do you make them own the business so that they can make the decisions based on the data that they have because they're running a business. And that's very empowering. And it also is a great way to manage up in a powerful way so that person sees that you own it. So it goes both ways, even illustrating that. I think it's great for senior leadership to reframe that.

[00:07:21] But if you're listening to this, how can you do that for yourself? Yeah. Reframe this as your business so that you can see it from a different angle. Yeah, I think that's just always a good rule of thumb for leaders to take a look at what they can control, treat it like it's their business and have a good perspective on it. I mean, whether you're working for a company like BlackRock, where I've worked in the past, and it is such a behemoth that you don't know 80% of what the company is doing, or you're a smaller company where you're fully aware of everything that's going on.

[00:07:50] There's opportunity for you to evaluate that and understand what you can affect. And that's a good point too. Wherever you are in the business, maybe you are trying to take a look that's just too broad. So how do you look at what are the goals for your area, your business? It's that ownership again. Yep. And that reminds me of another really cool idea that I've seen address this issue, which is called the shadow board. Imagine you've got your leadership team, probably not your board of directors necessarily, but your C-suite that you have a regular meeting.

[00:08:20] You meet every two weeks, whatever that looks like. But if you create a shadow board, and that board is a board of vice presidents that then reports into your C-suite, into your board. That shadow board is kind of like now your man on the street. Tell us what's really going on in the group. Call it a shadow board. Call it a group that has the ear of the business. And then hold no bar. Show them exactly what's going on. Talk about finances. Talk about the market.

[00:08:49] Talk about the competitors. And engaging that leadership team at that level and allowing them the voice really changes the dynamic and allows them, as we talked about, to have a different perspective and treat the business or their department like a business and really understand how it works. Yeah. So it's instead of owning your P&L, look at the management and leadership from the structure of a corporate entity that's publicly traded so they have a board. Yeah.

[00:09:18] Yeah, I love that. There's just so much opportunity. Some people love to be involved in that. And I think that perspective is always just so interesting. Every time somebody walks out of one of those, if they get us selected to be on the shadow board, you can rotate them through. Maybe they're on it every quarter, things like that. They come away going, I had no idea the business was so complicated. I had no idea that this was how things ran. Seeing the underbelly is often all it really takes for a company or for people to really understand why decisions are made.

[00:09:45] Have less frustration with the dumb things we do, unquote. And really participate in the success of the company. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's great. That's great.

[00:10:16] That's great. So, you know, I think that's great. I think that's great. I think that's great. I think that's great. I think that's great. Yeah.

[00:10:47] It's really important to see the broader picture. This is really interesting. Thanks, James. Fun topic. Thanks. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Quick Take, where we talk about the questions that are on the minds of executives everywhere. Connect with us and share what's on your mind. You can find us on LinkedIn, YouTube, or whatever nerdy place on the internet you find your podcasts. All the links you really need are in the show notes.