The Feedback Trap

[00:00:03] Welcome to the Quick Take Podcast, the show where you get targeted advice and coaching for executives by executives. I'm Susie Tomenchok. And I'm James Capps. Give us 15 minutes and we'll give you three secrets to address the complex topic of issues that are challenging executives like you today. Hey, welcome to Quick Take. I'm your just one host, an equal host.

[00:00:29] An equal host. We are co-hosts. You are my muse. There we go. Although I have control today because... All the control. Just to be completely transparent, we normally talk about, just briefly, about what we're talking about. And very often, we don't start talking about it because we know that's the episode. Right. We spend 10 minutes before the recording doing the episode and then have to stop ourselves because we get excited.

[00:00:58] So today is not the case. Today, I didn't even tell James what we're talking about today. And it's very close to my heart because it's actually happening to me. So I was in this situation where I evidently made somebody not very happy with me. That was super weird. I was giving them... How could that ever happen? I know. They asked for feedback and I gave pretty direct feedback. Like, it was about... It didn't feel personal to me. But evidently, it was really personal to the other person. And they didn't come back to me and talk to me about it.

[00:01:28] But they told their boss. Ooh. And then their boss texted me and said, hey, can we have a conversation? Da-da-da-da-da. And the boss was on the call, too. So they were a part of it. And then I had this conversation. She basically said, you know, this is the feedback that you attacked. You know, like you're... Not attacked. Let me reuse my words. You were...

[00:01:53] This person felt like I was saying that they're not doing a very good job. And that all of the things that I was critiquing... And I was like... But that was the point of the meeting. We were trying to... You know, like... So from my perspective, it was so interesting that I just was like kind of like not paying attention to the personalities. I was just being really authentic. And I went into like, what do we need to do to maximize improvement? Sure.

[00:02:22] And that felt very personal to this person. But the biggest thing for me... And I'm sorry. This is therapy for me because I've been... It's been reeling in my head. Oh, okay. I'm good. The one thing that it was really interesting to me in going through this, because I talk a lot about feedback with leaders, was the fact that the feedback went through kind of the telephone thing amplified and really diluted and also magnified the feedback in a way

[00:02:51] that it shouldn't have been. Like if that person would have talked to me directly... Totally understand your point. It would have been just squashed. I understand. But because it had this life and this person that was in the middle was like, why is this happening? Why do they feel this way? And so they started projecting like these other... Sure. It must have happened with this. And so they were bringing in because they wanted to figure it out. And so my bottom line is feedback is not something to take lightly.

[00:03:20] And if you're a leader and somebody gives you feedback about somebody else, don't be the person... Like really think about should you be the person that then relays the feedback? Very interesting. Yeah. I can see how that was manifested in a really negative fashion. You know, I can't help but think of the game of telephone. Yeah, exactly.

[00:03:45] When you share information to the next person, their filter, their biases, their history, whatever is going to modify what you say and take that on to the next person. And whether it's you just whispering some silly phrase at a party or feedback, there's 0% chance it's going to land on the next set of ears in the manner that you intended it to.

[00:04:11] And it's so true that what you learn in kindergarten is so applicable. And that's exactly what I thought. I thought, wow, isn't that really interesting that that is the same experience as in junior high. And like it has a life of its own because we all have a different lens of how we see the world. So even if you try as hard as you can to be as factual as possible, you still only see

[00:04:41] it from your place. And that person is acting fine to me. So that adds this like, like weirdness to it. There's no, there's no like reconciliation. Yeah. I understand your, your frustration and your, the confusion really. And the, the, the, the, I think the confusion comes from landing in a place that is not one or two or three degrees away from where you thought you'd be, but you're on another planet

[00:05:10] at another time. And, and that's, that's really wild. I, I, I wonder, you know, is there a way to provide feedback? Now, remind me in this case, the feedback you were giving. So you gave feedback to person A and then you ended up in a, in an office with person A and person A's boss discussing the feedback person A had been given. That's correct.

[00:05:39] Person A talked to person B and then person B called me. Right. Person B was very sympathetic to me and was like, oh, I think I don't, you know. But person A wasn't in the room when you got the, when you got called on the carpet, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. I, I look, I think if it, my perspective on that is, is clearly, look, if you went into

[00:06:02] the situation with best of intentions, with a game on and with positive intent, which I don't know that you've ever not done that. I would be very difficult for you to do that any way, shape or form. But if you did those three things, then you did the right thing. And what you really were experiencing was a, a, an un, non-functioning or unhealthy relationship between person A and person. Yeah.

[00:06:28] And really person A is an ability to, you know, grow, listen, hear, or be open to change. Yeah. And I suspect person A was looking for person B to tell them to ignore you that, oh, she doesn't know what she's talking about. She's just a consultant to ignore that. You're the best. Yeah. And if person B was as seasoned as you perhaps imply and was sympathetic to you, they know that they could have predicted that was probably going to happen. Yeah.

[00:06:56] Because there was nothing you could have said to person A that would allow them to hear, truly hear what you were suggesting. Totally. Okay. So I'm going to take a total right turn. So this is exactly what an executive would do when you're triggered by feedback and you're like, so I go to a trusted friend that has your C. You have nothing to do with it. Yep. You have my best interest in mind and you've just made me feel better. Yep. But let's go back.

[00:07:25] I'm going to zoom out and I'm going to give you a different perspective because I've been thinking about this because I've been thinking about talking about this and this is really hard for me. I don't really respect person A. And I think that I probably came across differently than I felt I did. Very possible. That's very possible. So I've been really thinking about the fact that, yes, my intentions weren't, to be honest, they weren't honestly to do that. Right.

[00:07:55] But I did, I was biased. I was charged up because I probably doubled down when I saw her push against. Yep. Yep. And so I've been thinking about like one thing about feedback is we always think about how we give it, but executives leaders need to think about how they take it. Sure. And there is always a lesson to be learned.

[00:08:18] So while I do think I've been just riled up about it, I also really believe that I need to like think about how do I show up and how do I limit my unobjective self? Well, if I could disagree with you, your unobjective self isn't very interesting. Fair. Okay. I agree.

[00:08:44] And so you are who you are and you look at the things that make you good are things that are unique to you. Yes, we can be better. And you could have perhaps given that feedback in a better way and you should learn that. Right. And you should know, like there has been more than one occasion. In fact, I could argue today I experienced this where I was in a position to give somebody feedback about something that I'm very sick and tired of giving somebody feedback on. Yeah.

[00:09:13] But I knew I was not in the place to do it. And I knew that now is not the time. And I was not going to give it in a way that was going to be heard. And perhaps my spidey senses were in a situation or knew that that person was not in a situation to hear it. So if there is a takeaway, there is the reminder that even when somebody does say, I want your feedback and they sort of imply or may be or even are genuinely in a place to get it.

[00:09:42] But there's two sides of that coin. They may be ready to hear it, but are you really ready to give it? Yeah. And maybe not. Maybe it's not about you being ready or excuse me, you're ready to give it, but it may not be simply that you have the information or have a good way to describe it or the words. You may just not be in a good place to do it. Yeah. Right. It could be for me, four cups of coffee in and 10 meetings down and I can barely, you know, blink without hearing my eyelids crunch.

[00:10:11] That's not a great time for me to be very present and very aware. So that's maybe the thought. And I think that's an important point around as executive leaders, it's easier to give feedback when you're emotionally charged or you're mad at them or there's like you're at a heightened state because giving difficult feedback means you have to go through some emotion. So if you're already there, sometimes it's easier. And I think that's a really risky position.

[00:10:40] Okay. I'm going to take it. I disagree with you, but I think it's a James thing and not a general thing. One of my superpowers, and I call it that only because it's funny, but it's really my trauma, is that when people get more energetic and more panicked and more aggressive, more emotional, I go down. Rarely do I meet, match people's energy. I always go the other direction.

[00:11:09] And I know that I am zero good at, zero good at giving any sort of constructive or coherent feedback when I'm at a high level. That's my point though. You missed my point. That's exactly right. My point is like, when you're doing that, that is not always the best time to do it because you're not clear. I misunderstood and thought you were saying that some people are good at that. And I think that there are people who are good at that, who are able to in real time.

[00:11:36] I can imagine on the battlefield of whether it's battlefield of life, battlefield of the Ukraine, whatever, that there are people who are able to give amazing feedback and constructive direction under duress. I just know that I am not, I can observe it and I can file that away and go, oh, this is one of those things that is a really good opportunity to bring up. But I'm not able to articulate it as well as I can when I'm in a more stable situation. I think most people are that way.

[00:12:06] And my point is it's easier because you want to get it off your chest in that time. Very true. So that you're not able to give it, be objective to say how they need to hear it or what their needs are, because it's just easier that moment just to, because you want to get it off your chest. Yes. And so that's something that is not fair as a leader to go and move forward, especially

[00:12:32] if it's like you've been delaying giving this feedback and they do it again. And you're so like, oh, they've done it again. I'm just going to go for it right now. That is not, that is not serving them. That's just serving you. Yep. Yep. Yep. That's a hundred percent, a great point where it may satisfy your need for, you're going to win the battle, but you're going to lose the war that ultimately that situation may not be the time for that person to hear it. Yeah. That's a really great, great point. Yeah.

[00:13:02] Well, anyway, this feedback whole thing was just something that made me realize and remember that it's all about, it's, it's, you have to really think about what you need to hear. And sometimes you need the space and hear it with somebody else that could be helpful to you. But sometimes you need to take a step back when you are unemotional and think about the words that people have said and evaluate, because I actually, I feel really bad about the situation.

[00:13:32] I don't really not like a, I just, that person is able to get my triggers. They just know my buttons. Yep. Yep. And so I just need to be aware of that. And as executive leaders, I think it's our responsibility to do that. The way I think about it is the feedback ceremony is a ceremony between two people. And both of those people have to be in a position to both give and receive that feedback.

[00:13:58] And if they are either side of that coin, either side of that ceremony is not in the right place, then that ceremony will not function. Yep. It's that simple. I totally agree. Totally agree. And one of my favorite books on the topic, and this is where we'll end, is Thanks for the Feedback. I don't get any benefit from saying that, but it is like an important read for all leaders. It's a great point. Great book. Great topic. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome.

[00:14:25] Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Quick Take, where we talk about the questions that are on the minds of executives everywhere. Connect with us and share what's on your mind. You can find us on LinkedIn, YouTube, or whatever nerdy place on the internet you find your podcasts. All the links you really need are in the show notes. All the links you really need are in the show notes.